Hey everybody, and welcome to uncomplicating Business. I am Sara. You know me at this point, or maybe you don't. I'm a business coach. I run uncomplicating business, the podcast, the uncomplicating Business Lab, and I live on the internet as a business coach, and in my house, I am delighted.

 Can I tell you how delighted to bring you today my friend Kristen Sobel, who is a sales and business coach, she works with service based B to B, female founders, who you we have done this. You know we have all done this. You love your business, but you want it to be more sustainable and predictable, and you like to have more clients at a higher dollar point. This is about Claire. She helps people bring the calm and the clarity and the structure to sales specifically, so you're not like lost in the sauce, which I think is really important. She and I have had some really good conversations about sales and the things, and that's really what we're going to talk about today. Hi, my friend. It's so nice to see you.
Hi Sara. It is so great to be here. Thank you so much for having me. I am thrilled to be here. Oh my god,

I can't wait. Okay, so I wrote my questions out. I was thinking about this yesterday, and I think the place to start is like, when you say sales and selling to people, yeah, what do you actually mean? Great.

So when I say sales and selling, it's really building relationships with the people who you would love to do business with. So what I mean by that? I mean there are a couple of steps behind that, but one, it means, are you clear on who you want to serve and work with? Because selling is not working with everyone or getting a yes from everyone. It's really identifying the people who you love serving, who you are uniquely positioned to serve, getting in front of them and building a relationship with them, so that if at any point they are interested in the services that you offer, that you're being considered for that if it's basically mutual, right fit is what we're looking for.

Well and it's what's interesting is it is inextricably linked, even from the get go, with being a connected human, yes, right? Like, I think the idea that sales and selling exists outside of networking is banana pants, right? Like they have to be to like they are part of the same package, yeah? Because sales and selling come from a connected place, you can't sell to not like. I think we try to make do sales without humans, yes, where it gets really weird, really fast, yeah, yeah, yeah. If I made sales into an equation, it would be sales equals Trust. 

Trust equals empathy plus authority. Oh, we can break it down, like each component of that, and this isn't, you know, this isn't my equation. So many, you know, there are so many ways to say the same thing, and I know, like, from your framework of ground plan, connect, so it's the same thing, but it's really trust is what selling really is. The goal of selling is to build trust with the people that you want to build trust with, yep, and trust is empathy plus authority. Well. And what's wild is, you probably don't know this, but I spent all of last year on the podcast on trust, the entire last year, yeah, I think it's the only thing
that's it, right? It's not like, literally the only thing like, if you can trust yourself and your podcast and that you are talking to the people you're meant to talk to, and that you're going to be in the right place at the right time, and you're doing the work that allows you to do that, yep, yes. Like it's magic, totally Yes, but it's not. It's like you trusted the process. You did what you were supposed to do, you did your part. Yes, yes. See friends, this is why I love her so much. What isn't it?

What isn't it? It is not getting yes from everyone. It is not. This is like a double negative. It's not never hearing no. You want no. You want to be the one to say no, in a very kind way. But there's a there's, I think we think that it's, I'm in front of a human who's buying this. Service that I have, and it has to be a yes if I'm doing a good job. And it's not that it's identifying the people who are for you and the people who you could refer to someone else because they're better served by someone else. So really, it is not yes from everyone. It is. It's not pushy, it's not sleazy, it's not inauthentic. I totally get why people feel that way, and we could go deeper into that, but it's not all of those things. What else is it not? It's not forceful, it's not pressure, no, well, it's not, it's always interesting to me that it's like, you know, so many of the people I work with come from a teaching lens, and so in a classroom, everybody has to come with you. Like, that's your job, whether they want to or not, right? Like kicking and screaming. Yeah, and in sales, we don't do that. Yeah, if they're kicking and screaming, they can go somewhere else. Yes, such a great. It's so fascinating, how compelled we feel to bring everyone Yeah, you're like, you know, if they look at you and they're they don't understand your business, they don't have to come, right? Like, you don't have to bring them. That's kind of the thing. It's not that. And it's also, you were like, it's not slimy, it's not sleazy, it's not, it's not. And that's because, you know, we don't have to kidnap people to get them. Yes, exactly. Not a felony. Yes. So and I think that's partly so when you say it's not slimy or sleazy or any of those things. For me, when I think about those things, what I realized at some point was the slimy and the sleazy and all those things were my thoughts about it less than their thoughts about it. Yeah, yeah. Like, how do you think about that with people?

I think about that one because I think we have been the recipient of people trying to force us into a solution that's not for us, and so that does not feel good. So one is we've seen it happen to us on the receiving end, and so we don't want to do that to other people. So that's coming from a really good place, which is knowing your values in your business. So So I think it comes from that. I think it also comes from it. You know, it is new, it is scary and uncomfortable. Like, if you think about it, like, back it up a couple steps, and you're like, Okay, so what am I doing? I'm going up to people who I don't know yet, and I'm having a conversation with them, which can be really scary. Yeah, you know. So that's so, if we think about it from a Why is my nervous system reacting when I'm trying to get in front of new people? It totally makes sense, and we can definitely, you know, work through all these things. But I think the slimy and the sleazy part comes in because we've been on the receiving end, and because we think that we are supposed to convince people when that is not what we're doing?

Oh, yep, and I am 100% on board with that. It's like the we've been told it works a certain way, the overcome every objection the and we've been on those calls. But just because there are people that do it that way doesn't mean you have to do it that way. Exactly, right? Like, exactly, just because there are people that get up at 4am every day doesn't mean that, yes, right? Like, that's in. There are parts of our lives that we're totally okay with that in, and then we come into business and we feel new, yeah, at sales or whatever thing, we're like, well, we have to do it like that. Yeah. You're like, I can't do it like this. And then you avoid it like the plague, because yes, and what I see in my people all the time is we had a bad sales experience. So we do everything I we can to avoid being anything like that, which includes just never telling anyone anything about what we Yes, yes. We over Correct.

Maybe yes, yeah. And I think what you're bringing up here is the importance of having Yes. There are a lot of examples of people who are sleazy and inauthentic when selling, but we also need to surround ourselves with people who are doing the thing that we want to do in a way that's very authentic. And yeah, you know. So we could go into a lot of examples, but like, one example for me, I'm not a big social media person, like I'm I'm on LinkedIn, and I like looking at com. Stuff on Instagram. But other than that, like, I don't post on Instagram, but if I ever wanted to post on Instagram, I have certain role models, like Sara Blakely, who I'm like, she posts on Instagram, and it's not just look at me, like, look what I'm wearing. It's something thoughtful and funny and you know, so it's we also need to do that in sales, where we give ourselves some examples of people who are truly authentic, not pushy, in their power feeling relatively relaxed. Like, yes, we all get a little bit of butterflies before we talk to someone new. It is unfamiliar for a lot of us, but once you get into the groove, you start to realize that you're just having conversations with people who have said, I'm interested in the thing that you provide well, and your job is not to tell them they're not Yes, which I think we do for people all the time. One of the pieces of homework I give clients periodically is, I'll say to them, okay, like, what's a sales experience you loved? And they'll be like, I don't think I had any I'm like, Well, you buy things, don't you? Oh, I love that. Be like, okay, so go think about why you said yes. What did you like about the process? What is what was good about the experience, whether it's you bought a bag on the internet or a car at the dealership or whatever, yeah, like, talk to me about your good experiences, because we forget we had them.

Yes, totally.

Because good experiences don't feel like sales, right? 1000 that's such a good
and so we ignore them. We just know the bad ones. And it's like, Guys, please, find the good ones. And that's to that point of like we have to find the role models we have the people and we have them Yes, forget Yes. And even just like to continue with the thought that you had, you know, if you even want to define sales differently as you are looking for your people, and you are inviting them to learn more about you and how you might be able to elevate each other like it's it's such a beautiful thing. If you think about, you know, in a different angle, it's not just you know, find people pitch them like if you think about it in that way, that sounds horrible, but you're really just looking for your people who love the work you do, and you're looking to connect with them, build a relationship, and see if it makes sense to work together well.

And it's the picture in my head, is the things that live in my head. Sometimes I'm like, the difference in my head between, like, pitching, literally throwing baseballs at them, or handing them an invitation to a party, right? I can be a normal human and invite you to my party, or I can pelt you with things, yes. Like, I don't know why I need to pelt you with things, though, that seems rude. Yeah?

Like, yeah. Doesn't feel good for them. Doesn't feel good for you. Let's, like, just have fun and get to know each other. And, you know, again, like, there's a process. There's a you know, I think sometimes people get into this wishy washy. Like, if we think of sales equals trust, trust equals empathy plus authority. Some people are really good at the empathy piece, the warmth, the like, let's get to know each other, and they struggle with the authority piece, which is, you know, so we can go deeper into that. But you know, it's both. It's, yeah, let's get to know each other. Let me learn about you, and let me, let me educate you on what I do and see if that is interesting to you well, and it's I was just talking on the I just got off with Molly, and we were talking about connection. Molly got free in connection, without cringe. And yes, what we were talking about was like, in connection as you're talking to someone, if you see an opportunity to be like, Oh, here's a thought I have that I think might help you, or here's something I do that I think might help you. Or have you ever thought about it this way? Is you bringing your authority? Yes, without being like, creepy, like, Well, when I this way, it should be done. Like, we don't need to be like, super weird about it. It's just like, Hey, have you ever thought about it like this? Okay, I brought my authority. You have a thought now, and you can do
with it as you wish. Yes. Go totally Yes, yes.

So if you had to describe your Kristin sales philosophy. Is it like?
What is it? Yeah, what is it? Okay, so I would say it's, it's mindset, systems and habits and really, with on with the service of trust being. You know, what you're really looking to do is build trust within, like you said, and trust with the people who you're meant to serve. And what's the vehicle for getting there? Like, how do you do this? It's mindset is big. So, like, we could definitely talk about the emotional, mental, mind, body, everything that comes with growing a business is that the age old question of, how are you not the biggest barrier? Right?

Exactly, yes, and I love in your, you know, when I was looking at your stuff, it's ground so I can imagine there it's all about, you know, connecting within, making sure that you feel safe to take these brave actions of selling and growing. So that's a piece. The other piece is systems. So that basically means like, instead of reinventing the wheel every single time you know, sort of throwing darts out, like with your eyes closed, like you have a system for how you you know, qualify, whether or not someone's a fit for you, if you know inside who your best clients are and where they hang out, and how you can get in front of them, and how you can build trust with them. So like, that's the systems piece, yep. And I can go deeper into that. And then the last piece is habits. So you do need to take action on a consistent basis. So meaning, like, if you have an amazing conversation with someone, but they're going on spring break and they're like, follow up with me after I get back from spring break. 

Sometimes people don't do that because, like, something happens between that amazing conversation, and it's the mindset piece, usually, which happens between that amazing conversation and your follow up, your brain happens, and you're like, your brain, they didn't mean it. Yes, I don't want to be annoying. I don't want to like, Oh, what if that's too What if, you know. So then it's the fear piece, and the habits are really, what are the consistent actions, the needle moving, actions that will get, you know, someone from, oh, you know, kind of curiosity, no, like, like, I know you, I like you, but like, there needs to be a bridge to I trust you enough to buy your services. Because usually, probably the people you're working with and the people I'm working with, you know it sometimes an engagement can be six figures. And so like for someone to go from just meeting someone and liking them and being curious and interested. There's still some, you know, relationship building that's needed for someone to be like, Okay, I'm ready. Let's do this well.

And it takes like, I you know it's this high systems, habits, mindset, yes, guys, she's my new best friend. I'm taking her everywhere, in my pocket, amazing, like a little mouse. Take me. I'm ready. And it is but it is fascinating that, like you can have all this, it's, it's like a three legged table, and if you have the systems and habits, but your brain is constantly in your way, they are moved.

Yes, yes, if your 1,000% but I think, you know, I always, one of the things I talk about with people all the time is success really requires basically two ingredients. It's like the best recipe ever. It's belief and how, yeah, and if we start with how and not belief, we're screwed. Everything is if we start with belief, then all the house work, like it's that directional thing really matters. So, like, you can have all the systems and habits, but if you're in your own way, it's a problem. 

But if your mindset is straight, you'll actually use the symptom Yes, like and they can be refined and tuned, yes, but you have to be straight with yourself. And kind of like I had this, I had a really interesting conversation with a client this morning. She said, we're really working on her systems and habits around separating her life and business and she was like, When am I going to find balance? And I was like, we are really working on the systems and processes, and I love you, and I say this with love that it's not about finding, it's about taking, because for her, balance is going to be a decision where she's like, Okay, I'm not gonna do this at midnight. Yes. She's gonna take it yes and create space for it and decide it versus wait for it to show up and be like, yeah, yes, sure, yes. And so I think that that's part of the mindset side of all of those sales, of everything else.

Yes, I love that. And what you when you're describing that, it reminds me of sort of, I have, you know, we all go through challenging phases in business, and there's a little bit, maybe it's just me, but I don't think it is. There's this. A illusion that, like, one day I will outgrow my own BS and stop doing this stuff, you know, meaning, like avoiding sales and marketing over perfecting as a way to procrastinate from launching this thing that money and going to be, yeah, so it's like, but the point of bringing that up is it's, it's not one and done. We will always be sort of getting outside of our familiar zone, comfort zone, and that's scary. 

And like, we have all these protective mechanisms, like, you know, overworking, flight, freeze, fun, like we have all these, you know, nervous system responses, and it's and it's constant. And so one of the things that you know, I know you feel this way and I feel this way, which is that's why being connected to people who are also doing this brave work really keeps it consistent, because it's not like, oh, okay, I figured out the how, like you were saying, I figured out the how, or I figured out the belief. It's like, it's a constant revisiting, which makes it kind of sound exhausting, but the reality is, we are always growing and progressing, and we are always meet, meeting a new edge of our comfort zone. And so that's why we do need to commune with people who are also doing that,
and so that you can get on the thing, and they can go holy crap, and you can go holy crap, and then you're like, Okay, what are we doing? It does. And like, the people whose brains are constantly searching for that, like, Y'all, we did this. This is crazy. People don't do this on purpose. 

Yeah? And they'll be like, how come, how come my so and so doesn't have their own business you're like, because not everybody is brave or crazy do this, yes, right? Because it is a constant process of challenge, right? It's a constant challenge, and that's the joy and also the disaster. Yes. So I'm going to change this little bit here, because I what I'd like to know from your perspective is, why is, what is it about sales that's such a hang up for people, and what has been the biggest hang up for you?

So good. Okay, what is it about sales that's the biggest hang up? I think the biggest hang up is, well, a couple, I'll just list, like players, okay, so the one big hurdle is client delivery always trumping growth. So because everyone in your sphere, everybody in my sphere, high achievers, extreme, you know, extremely high standards of excellence. And so clients not being 10,000% happy is not an option. And so they will always go above and beyond for client delivery, which I'm not saying, you know, there's anything wrong with but there is a limit of, if, everything, every everything goes to client delivery, then it just means you're not putting anything into who are my next couple of clients coming like I'm down with good delivery, as long as it's not cannibalizing everything else. Yes, exactly. So that does happen a lot. And so, you know, that's a that's a real challenge, and so people can address that in many different ways. But, you know, it's, I think people underestimate that a little bit of consistent effort with growing relationships, building relationships, has a compound impact. So it's not that you need to become a professional salesperson who's always selling, you know, yeah, but there you do need to, you do need to put some time into it if you do want to grow well.

And I think, you know, to that point, I think focusing on over delivery for clients and never doing the sales things is a way of hiding. It's, yes, exactly. It's a reaction to discomfort because you're comfortable in the doing and scared of the selling. And so yeah, well, that's well and good, except your business does not appreciate

Yeah, yeah. It does not like that exactly. And so the the sooner we can not judge ourselves for that, instead of like raking ourselves over the coals for this piece of the business being hard or being unfamiliar, you know, just what kind of support do you need? You know? And I think a lot of people then go, like, I'm going to listen to this podcast, and I'm going to like, read every book, and I'm going to, like, take this course. And so sometimes they go so overboard in the information space of like, learning, get the next certification and and, like, still, it's another procrastination tactic from the action of sending the email, asking the friend for the introduction, you know, sending an email to that networking group that you would love to give a talk, you know, with their people. So I would say client delivery. Think there are different. Sneaky ways that we avoid selling. So it could be client over delivery for clients, it could be, you know, perfecting your product. It could, you know, so there are a lot of sneaky ways. So basically it's just one is not doing it at all, but being really busy, and then you're confused with, like, why am I so busy? But I'm not making more and more money. So that could be it. Because if you actually looked at the data, they would see that, like on any given week zero, minutes were given to growing and building relationships well.

And so what I think you're saying is the stickiest thing that goes wrong with selling for people is not doing it. Yes, yeah, yeah, truly, and I and I think that's right for doing anything, but anything that feels remotely sales related, because we're back to avoiding being the gross, sticky guy, yes, right? And so we're just avoiding it like the plague. So yes, the question I have for you is, like, has that been your like, where do you fit? Oh, yeah, I do it too.

What does it mean we all need, yeah? So my, my big thing, you know, I, my business coach told me never trust a business coach who doesn't have a business coach. So I, I have someone who is giving me the same direction, yeah? So because we're not very or I'm not very good at taking my own advice, but I will, I will do it if someone else tells me to do it. So, yeah, so, so where it goes sticky for me, I'm definitely in the perfectionist like my go to response is, oh, it's not good enough yet. So I need to make it better before I get out there and start talking about it. So that's my go to spot. And so I need to be, like, loving and non judgmental, and just, you know, kind of have my own back and be like, I see what you're doing, Kristen, and like, I know you want to deliver at the highest level, and it's good enough, and like it you're ready, but I know you're scared, you know. So, like, I literally talk to myself, yeah? Like, it is scary sometimes to be like, I worked really hard on this, and now I'm putting it out there and like, people could judge it, or maybe, maybe there are some flaws with it, you know, but I'll figure it out as I go well.

And it's funny. I the thing I have found that I have to ask myself, and I ask clients all the time, which is like, a lovingly mean question, like, is it, will it be useful to at least one person right now? And if the answer is yes, then it's good,
yeah. It's Oh, my God, I'm gonna start right yeah. And that's like, I'll be like, is it useful? And I'll be like, Oh no, yes, yes, yes. Is the end. I think mine is,
yeah, what is yours? Less perfectionism and more, more like, just letting it fall off the list and letting it fall off the list. And so I have found that I have a couple of things that I have to really pay attention to and track, yes, so that I so they don't fall off the list, right, so that I know they exist. Because I have to keep myself in my lane, like, otherwise I'm like, what? I haven't talked to anybody three months, yeah, because I was doing 17,000 other things, and then I'm like, oh, no, that doesn't work. To do that.

Yeah, tracking is a huge and I'm sure you, you know, talk about this with everyone you work with. But what is tracked improves like it's if you just track it. You will improve. So because, yeah, we're by nature, like, like, number counters, right? Like, oh, I have six. Now I could have seven, yes, and it's fun. Like, once, yeah, I one person gave me the best compliment ever, and she said, like, you've made the business part of my business fun. I was like, yes, like, I want people to enjoy the CEO job versus, you know, just the specialty that they have. They we already know they love their specialty. Like, they love being a coach. They love being a, you know, an event planner. They love being a consultant, a strategist, you know, but sometimes it's loving the job of CEO that they're not loving yet because they're only experiencing the roller coaster ride of, Oh, crap, I forgot this. Oh, I didn't do enough of this.

I know. Well, and there's, there's something about being like, Oh, I'm allowed to wear this hat, yes. And I can even like it, yes, yes. And I think that's an interesting like, not only should you, you're allowed to like it, it's allowed to be fun. Or you can just be like something that you don't you have to touch it, and you don't have to be it. Can just be like, yes, once it's working, it works. Yes. I don't spend a lot of time on those things in my. Own business, because, like, I have the systems and the processes, the habits to your point, yes, yeah, allow them to work. Like, I say to me, and you do the same thing. Probably, if you're like, Okay, how much money is coming in and going out, you know? Yeah, look, yes, like, I have, people will be like, Okay, let's PNL, and they'll be like, nope, yeah,
yeah, because you're touching on a spot. Yeah, yeah, look right.

So what is your favorite thing about the sales and selling part?

Well, I think it is one, once you're super, super clear on who that those mutual right fit clients are. It feels so good to work with people who energize you. You energize them. They love and appreciate what you're providing them. I love and appreciate what they're providing me. So like, once you have the like, I know who my people are. It can, you know, I know the process of, like, getting out there and becoming visible and getting in front of people and talking can be a little hard, but then you're like, but my clients are so awesome that don't you want to just make this party bigger, more fun, connect more people. So I think that's the part I love, is just, you know, more people who are awesome, who like, really get me and I really get them.

Here's a question, yeah, one of the things I think I see a lot is, and I know this is me too, is I even early on, knew, like maybe not in a way I could articulate who my people were and weren't Yes, but I didn't trust it fast enough Yes. So how, like when you see people that kind of know and maybe can't articulate it, but definitely know, like, what are your thoughts about that spot?

Yeah, yeah. So the way it shows up is through this really frustrating dynamic where you have sales calls with people, and it's just not going anywhere like you. It's everything's great, but then you know it's like, whether it's building a website, let's say I'm a graphic designer and I build websites, and they're like, Yeah, my budget's $1,000 and it's like, well, that's that's not gonna build a one. You're like, Oh no, yeah, yeah.

So, so I would say, like, the way it shows up is super frustrating, because you're like, I'm doing it. I'm getting out there. I'm talking to people. And then if you just constantly are talking to people who are on a totally different wavelength, you just know, okay, I need to step back. And I want to just figure out who of my clients, who I've worked with, who are the absolute dream clients. And then you analyze them, you're like, what was it about this person who that like, they had budget, they had enthusiasm, they had openness, they, you know, they were just a dream client. And you sort of, you become a detective and a scientist of that dynamic. And I've even worked with people who are like, I've never had a dream client. And then you're like, Okay, let's dream about it. What would make this client so amazing, you know, like, what kind of budget does that client need to have? Where, where do they live? You know? So it's not just the demographics. I think sometimes people can get really tuned into, like, it's someone between the ages of 45 and 50. Like, that's not really, yeah, that's not really what I'm talking about. It's more of this emotional like, yes, how do they think? What problems do they have? What dream solution do they want? 

What have they tried in the past that hasn't worked, you know? And I would say, like that component of it, you know, a lot of people talk about your ICA, so like your ideal customer avatar, I have found the work of Marie Forleo in this particular area to be the most effective at helping you have a system. But that's like in the sales process. That's what you're doing your your discovery call is really asking questions so that you can understand. Is this someone who fits into that sort of center space of they want what I have, I love. You know who they are, all of that so well.

And I think it's interesting. It's the like, I often have clients, and I'm sure you've seen this too, who get that fit, and they're like, $1,000 budget, and you're like, oh, and then they bend over backwards to get saved. Yes, it's really pain. And then it's painful because they're not happy, and nobody's happy. Yes, and there are cases where I think I end up talking to clients about, like, Okay, how did we know it wasn't a good fit? Yes, like, what were the flags and like, it's always interesting people. I. Had a client once say to me, but like, everybody has that as a red flag. And actually that's not the case. Like I have two professional organizers in my world, and one, an immediate red flag for her, is somebody who feels a little indecisive, yeah? Like, if they can't make decisions, she is like, yes, that's a nightmare. Yeah, put them out on a boat. But the other one is like, excellent. I'm great at helping people figure that part out. Oh, great.

Like their partners well, but it's so interesting that their immediate reaction to that is 180 degrees different, yes. And so it's like, listen, the thing you don't love in somebody that like makes you want to tear your eyebrows out is somebody else's Like, Favorite thing, and so it's okay if you're like, that's not for me. It's for someone that's fine. Yes, totally. That's always so interesting to me. Like you're allowed to not enjoy Yeah, I don't enjoy people I have to hunt down. Yes, like, I'm not going to send you four reminders. But I have a client who works with people who are like, super ADHD, and she would send you a reminder every day happily, it's part of, oh my gosh, yeah. I am not that that Yes. We want to sit under my desk.

Yes. The thing about this dynamic that I want to make sure people hear is that some people who have experienced, you know, sort of consistent discovery calls, like the first sales call, and they just find that, like, the budget's not there, the budget's not there, or there's just some mismatch. Sometimes they think their conclusion is, I'm not good at selling, and that is not the case. Nope. The problem the diagnosis is that you're just not talking to the people who are potentially a right fit for you. So it's just, we need to get you into the spaces where your right fit clients hang out. So that's one thing I want to say, is that, like a lot of people, I think why selling can be painful for people is that they assume it's their problem. But it's really, there's just a slight tweak to make, and it's you're probably there's this quote that my client told me that came from a feminist, empowered Dating Coach, and this line works perfectly in selling it is you cannot say the wrong thing to the right people, and You can't say the right thing to the wrong people. Yep, and it's so true. 

It's like, most of it is just, it's not like, oh, what's the script? What do I say? How do I say it? Like, yeah, I mean, whatever. It's not scripts. It's like, you just need to talk to the right people. And that is a challenge, and sometimes people need a little bit of assistance in that, but that's a much, that's something you can really work with and do, versus always saying the right thing, like that doesn't exist well, and it's the people that are for you or for you. Yes, it's just really that, like your people are for you, and the people that are your fans like what you do, yeah, like they exist, and they're already following you around. And that, to me, is the like I say to people. I talk to people all the time, it's like, you have fans, and they'll be like, yeah. Like, No, you do. You have people who are watching you that you don't even know. Yeah. They're like, Oh, cool. I wish I could work with her. Yes, happening, yes, and they didn't, like, put up a sign on their front door and be like, someday, this is not say anything. I was just talking 14 year old about that movie the other day. She was like, Mom, sounds terrible. 

Oh no. But I it really is just that, like, trust Yes, in that it's your it's going to be it works out. Okay, yes, love it. What do you want to leave people with? What is, do you have a thought that you want to be like, Oh, this. Don't forget Yeah, don't forget this. I would say, first of all, don't forget that sales is just a skill. Like, it's, it's nobody was born knowing how to sell. Like we were just babies. We just came into the world. We just knew who we liked and didn't like. But like, we did not know how to sell. Nobody comes out just knowing how to sell. 

So one thing is, like, if anybody is feeling like sales is a challenge and they're struggling, it's there are probably just some minor tweaks in either the mindset, the habits, the systems, you know, the way that they connect with people. Yeah, it's just a skill. So first, I just want people to know that it's learnable. It's totally doable. And then the other thing is just, I think some, one of the big things that I have learned is that if I'm feeling resistance to something like, let's say that I'm just avoiding selling, I have found this. It's taken me a long time, but I have found that the more that I just own it and acknowledge it without judging myself for it, the more I can actually address it, as opposed to what I used to do is try to out hustle any kind of resistance. 

So So really, the out hustling was overworking, over perfecting, getting busy and all these other things, you know, and not just being like, why is this so hard for me right now? And I'm not mad at myself, and I'm not judging myself, but like, what is it that I'm scared of? And I think sometimes just asking yourself that, and just being, you know, kind of like the way you would talk to a friend can allow you to take the first couple steps of, like, I actually do want to sell. I do want to grow this business. Yeah, what am I really afraid of? And like, what can I give myself? What kind of support can I give myself that will allow me to just take that next brave action? And it builds like, I just want people to know that, like, one tiny step can build on the next tiny step, and before you know it, your business is at the level that you've always dreamed of well.

And I think what I What's interesting, what's really useful about that is, like, everybody avoids stuff, yeah, and it is okay to pause and be like, All right, I'm really avoiding this. What do I need right now? Yeah, I think that's the most important question I learned to ask myself at some point, which was like, Okay, what do I actually need right now? And maybe it's a snack.

Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, totally.

Like, I'm avoiding things because I'm hungry and I'm just having an afternoon and like, maybe I'll come back tomorrow, like, or maybe I do it tonight, when I sit down or whatever, yeah, like, call with a friend. I'm avoiding this thing. What? Like, I just need to voice it to someone, yeah, who's not gonna write it down on paper. And then I laugh at myself. Have you ever had something come out of your pen and you're like, well, oh yeah, that was too much truth for me today. Thanks for playing. This is why I journal under protest. Totally tell people how to find you.

Okay, so my website is Kristin sobel.com it's K, R, i, s, t, e, n, s, O, B, E, l.com, from there you can, you know, if you want to talk to me, you can fill out a form and I'll respond. But that's, that's the easiest way to find me.

And you and I are talking again. We're live together about sales in, like, the actual, like, nitty gritty, yeah, like,
what are we actually doing here? Like, what happens on a sales call, and how do you get to the people the sales call, and how you're not even freaking weird about it, Wednesday, the 22nd and one, I will make sure everybody sees that and can sign up. It will. I'm excited. It's going to be great. Oh, great. I have too many things.

Thank you so much for for having me. I love your questions. I could talk about this all
day like we could you and I could we're gonna be our problem friends. Find Kristen all the places. Remember she's also on LinkedIn. You could reach out to her and be like, Hey, I heard you on the podcast. I'd love to actually know you remember that no one dies if you do that. If next month or this month or this week, you want to come join us in the uncomplicating Business Lab, please do. 

We would love to see you. This is the stuff we work on, the actual like implementation and accountability of being grounded, being connected, having a plan for what you're going to do and actually doing the selling part, so that you're not just avoiding it like the plague. And we do that in community together. So if you want to come do that, come do it in the lab with us. Otherwise, I will see you guys in two weeks for more sales things probably see that only.