Welcome to another episode of uncomplicating business. I am Sara Torpey. I am the creator of selling for weirdos, you know, all of these things. And I am thrilled to talk to you yet again about trust, because, you know, this is what we're stuck doing this year, because it actually matters that much, and today I strong armed one of my favorite people into joining us for the podcast. 

Please meet Kelly Donnellan hoy. She is the owner of a consulting agency that is all about communications and culture and change management. So she and her team help companies change effectively, communicate effectively and engage their employees, engage your people in a way that keeps them with you and connected and fulfilled and doing their best work without it being like weird. Because you know how quickly those things get weird. You and I both know this. So Kelly knows so So, so, so much. And one of the things she's really worked hard on over the years is trust, particularly in herself as a business leader. So I'm going to make her talk to you about that. But and and over the last number of years, her business has really grown. 

Her team has grown, the kinds of things they offer, has grown so it is. She's a wonderful person to have if you're in a growing place and you're growing a team, Kelly is the one you want to listen to. Miss Kelly. I'm so happy to have you. Thank you so much for being a part of this.

It is a joy. And thank you for that lovely, warm, gracious overview and introduction, I'm going to have to call you every day and have you just kick off who I am. Thank you for having me here.

Oh my gosh, it's a delight. I'm it's taken us a minute to get here because I was like, no, no, you're going to do this true. So we're going to start with just how you think about trust when you think about trust in yourself and in your business, what does that mean to you? How do you define it now? How has it grown and changed? Right?

Okay, great question, and it actually links to what we do, because if we're not building communications that help people trust their leaders or their organization. We're not doing our job. So it spills over not only how I think about myself as an owner of a business and managing employees and a team of contractors, but what we actually deliver. So it's a critical topic, and I want to thank you for bringing it to your podcast series, because I think every business owner should contemplate this and reflect on it. So trust to me, if I had to define it, is really a belief that things will turn out the way they're supposed to. And I phrase it just like that, because it's not belief that they'll turn out the way I want them to. And it took me a little while to understand the difference, because you can only control some things, and understanding that means you open yourself up to different outcomes. You work hard. You really want a certain thing to happen, and you envision it and you plan for it, but trust is saying, Okay, I've done what I can, and I trust that if it doesn't come out exactly like that, I'm still going to be okay. 

My people are going to be okay, my clients are going to be okay. And I get reminded of that truth over and over and over again, well, and it's with your kids and with everyone else. And I think I love this thought that trust is about knowing the outcome will be the outcome it's meant to be. It's going to work the way it's meant to be, rather than the way, with my limited imagination, that I can imagine it from where I am now, right? That's so right. And I appreciate the nod to children too. I think even prior to trust in my business, I had the opportunity to flex that trust muscle with my daughters, who are early 20s, late teens, so plenty of opportunity there, which I hope we can talk about at some point, because, yeah, good stuff.

It's well, and that's really but it is that, like, I may not know how it's going to look when we're finished, but I know it'll be what it's supposed to be. That's. Like, it's so hard, it is hard, but I think when you lean into it and you you start to build your ability to trust. It becomes sort of an antidote to worry and fear. Because, you know, fear is like, what if this doesn't happen, and then we tend to kind of go down a path of that what if can turn into the negative what ifs. But if you trust, trust the universe, which is a phrase I've heard from Hmm, where have I heard that? Often? Oh, yeah, from you.

 If you trust, then it sort of quiets that voice that has all those scenarios playing in your head that are like, Oh, this could go south. There really isn't a south, because you believe I'm going to adapt, I'm going to work with what happens, good, bad or otherwise, Oh, well. And so I want people to hear that if you trust it's all going to work out in the end, there's no south, right, right? It can't go wrong. It just went different. And that is such a fundamentally important shift, right, that like, no matter how it's going, it's going how it's supposed to be going, rather than I screwed it up or it went sideways, or I broke it, or it's me, or whatever. Like this idea that, like, you can't go south, right and right, that's 100% right. And you know, when you have that sort of lens or that approach, you also stay active in the whole process, because, if you're like, putting something out there, expecting it to happen, then you're kind of what like, waiting like, I'm going to get an answer, good or bad this way it's it comes back to you, and you're saying to yourself, Okay, well, what do we do next? How do we take that response? And sometimes it's not what you anticipated, but what do we do next? It sort of keeps you engaged and active in moving things forward, and that's where real growth happens. So I think it's helped me grow personally. I have fewer sleepless nights still some you know, I'm human, but it's helped my business grow too.

Okay, so talk to me about, you know, you're talking about flexing this trust muscle and how much it's helped you, but like, how have you actually learned to flex it? Like, talk to me about the actual strengthening of it, because I know this is a practice for you, and it's a practice for everyone, but it's not like, you woke up on Monday, you were like, I don't trust things. And on Tuesday, we were like, poof, it's a magical trust like, it is not a unicorn. We caught in the kitchen. Nobody gives us a sticker and we've got it like, that sucks. I would love to hand out trust stickers. That'd be amazing. Be like, papering people with them. But like, what is the learning in the practice of this looks like for you? Yeah?

Okay, so so many different things to say, and I'm trying to figure out where to go first, I'll start with a personal example, because I really do think that fueled me expanding trusting into other dimensions of my life, my two daughters, they are wonderful. They are the loves of my life. My husband and I are very proud of them. At 19 and 23 I am no longer the driver of all of their actions, all of their decisions, all of where they go and how they spend their time and who they spend it with. And it was very hard to be honest, and any parents that are listening out there will know what I need to let go and to trust that they were going to be okay, whatever the circumstance was. And so for me, when my older daughter turned 18, and she was really powerful at testing my parenting skills, I will be honest, I decided so it was a conscious effort, effort first that now at 18, she she really does own some of her own choices, and so I I felt like I could empower her and that and trusting it's as much her responsibility as it is mine, gave me the space to say, Okay, I don't have control over this.

 I believe it will all be fine, and I'll be equipped to help her whichever waste a certain situation comes. And so the the ability to say it's time to let go, help me not have as many sleepless nights or worry, because it wasn't just mine to carry anymore. And that's turned out to be really, really good. So much. So that I can test it in my business, and I can put things into motion and say, Alright, I don't I might not have control. I may not get that business, may not land that new client, but I know I'm going to be okay no matter what the outcome. And I also have learned to apply it with my team, so I'm trusting them more than I ever have before, to do things and to do them without me having to review and double check and get my approval first. And I can give more examples there, but I think it started well. I think there's actually two things in there, though, because one of them is letting go of the outcome, right? 

The other is letting go of the how, yes. And both are challenging, uniquely right? Uniquely hard. Because, like, for example, here in my house, I really like the laundry folded in a very particular way. But if I don't want to be the one to fold the laundry, then I have to not care how it gets folded. Yes, right? Like, there's I can't not want to fold the laundry and care how it gets folded at the same time, like it can't have both. So I have to let go of the how, like with your older daughter, you had to trust that the outcome would be okay, and let go of how she got there. Yes, and your team is the same, letting them do the work they're going to do the way they're going to do it, as long as they get to the outcome you've required.

Yes exactly, and it's not I can give you a great example. My longest time employee has been with me, I think, eight years. And we have a certain offering. It's a peer awards program, and there's one client where she runs the entire program end to end. Now, as a courtesy, she might say, would you take a look at this piece of the project? And if I have time, I make suggestions, but she's not waiting for me to sign off or say, okay, proceed, because I trust her to do it. I have empowered her to say, this is this is yours. And if something should bubble up and not happen the way we anticipated, then we address it and we fix it. Or we say, that worked great. Let's do it with other parts of the business. So it's that letting go on, like you said, the how and the outcomes, the outcomes, in the end, it's almost irrelevant. I hate to say it that way, and maybe that sounds too naive. Oh, it's like do what I am intending to do, and then let it ride, and I will take the next step whatever comes back my way well.

And I think that there is a trust in i The thing I think about all the time is, all I can do is my part, yes, yes, right? Like, all I can do is my part. But if I know I'm doing my part, then it is what it is after that. Like, I can't make the other cars on the road do what I want them to do. I can just drive my car, like output. Could they move please, out of my way?

Yes, yeah, traffic is outside our control, right? But you can, right, but it's that yes, have a cup of coffee and your little cup holder. You can make your experience responsive and good no matter what or I can be insane and sometimes that happens exactly, but like, I get to choose that that's mine, but I can't choose what they actually do in their car, right? I did see a lady reading on her Kindle in her car the other day, and I also saw a lady knitting at a stoplight. Like, what do you have to do so bad that you're knitting at the stoplight? Is what I want to know. Like, what is it that so deeply that you're like, I'm knitting at the stoplight, but that's the whole I wanted to be like, lady, can you get out of the car? So we can talk about this. But okay, so what are the other things that you do? Because I know you have other habits. What are the other things that you do that help you practice trust?
Okay? 

So thank you for circling back to other ways to get good at this. I will say categorically, it helps to have a guide. Now, in this case, you are that guide for me, so I'm not trying to prop you up unnecessarily. I think it's really valid to find someone you trust. No pun intended, because what that person does is helps you look at things in a more objective way. How many times since you and I have worked together have I come to you pre trust muscle, let's say, with this crisis on my hands, and the calm sounding board that you've provided helps me step back and say, Well, wait a minute, what's really going on here? Objectively, are we really saying the sky is falling? Has it ever fallen before? Do you have evidence that this is the end of things for all time? Of course, the answer always is no. And then you you also have helped me say, alright, well, what is the worst thing that could happen? You don't get the business. 

You know, a client is not happy, what are you going to do next? There's always a next step. And so I think having that partner, that Sherpa, trust Sherpa, really helps you with your own narrative, and we You've helped me with quieting that voice, because we're human, and sometimes we tend to think about the negatives too much, and if you don't have a balance, then that little voice suddenly gets much larger and louder, and we call it Edna, right? Little Edna Kelly says Edna, mine is.no
but it's true. So if left your own devices, it's, it's a lot harder. Some people maybe practice, and they can be like, that's just the voice I'm not listening to today. It helps you get there when you have someone to say, oh my gosh, and then piece it together or pick it apart to realize, Wait, it's not as bad as it seems. Let's get back on an objective track. So that's one. Have a partner. I highly recommend. And you know, depending on your capacity, maybe you are that Sherpa for people listening. 

The second thing I do is journal. Yup, I am a devoted where is it? Here it is, right. Always by my hand, right here, I have to pretty much be dead to not enter something in this on a daily basis, and not always about trust, but but whatever I'm grappling with to grow and to make myself a better leader and make my company thrive, comes in here And that that also is a very balancing concrete way to quiet that voice. Because Can you do me a favor? Yes, and tell people about how you started journaling.

Oh, you mean your requests. Yeah, it's several books ago. People out in the universe, listening. But Sara and I first started working in the pandemic, I received a little lump sum of money from the government, and my accountant said, Well, of course you should take that. So I was like, huh, how am I going to use this? Let's get a business coach. So when I first started talking with you, I had a lot of doubts and lack of confidence about my role as a leader. I'd been running my company for, I don't know, a long time, 12 years, something a long, long time, not always with people underneath me, but leadership was a big hang up for myself, and so you, my friend, said, All right, I am going to give you a prompt for your journaling. And it was, what is leadership to me? And you were very kind, because you're like, I just need you to spend 10 minutes a day, do it any time of day, morning, noon, night, whatever works for you, what is leadership to me? And so the funny part is that was my only prompt that I got for like, the first three months that I worked with you, and I'd come to our calls and I'd be like, Are there any other prompts? 

You're like, no, keep going. So sometimes it's not only just the practice of journaling, but really digging deep into a particular topic, and then I could go back and share what I'd written and kind of walk through and reshape the narrative. Because once I sort of kicked the tires or picked at it or peel back the layers, however you want to say it, I started to realize that, you know, Leadership isn't this, like, elusive thing, like, I can't ever Aspire it to it. I actually did some things that were very leaderly all the time, all the time, and that's eventually, eventually when  she was like, a leader. We were like, now we get a new question. She was like,

Holy hell, right? But it was, you know, it is, for me, sometimes I think that's like a repetitive mechanism for people, because there is something there to trust, and it's just peeling back the like disbelief so many times in a row that you're. And is like, wait. So every day I get to this point where I'm a leader, oh, what's happening here? And you start to trust that. Like, maybe that is a thing. It's like, Wait. Is this right? Yeah, but it is that trust in I think sometimes what happens is we forget to trust the experiences we've already had. Yes, yeah, because they weren't like in the last three minutes. Yeah, right. And it's like, oh my gosh, but I did that. I did that three years ago. I'm like, Well, okay, you still know how to do it. Don't you like, if I said to you tomorrow, get on this bike, would you be like, new or maybe one but, but you'd figure it out.

I agree. It's that rewiring is so important, because when you're little, or when you're raising your kids, you don't like show them how to walk and be like, Okay, you're good. No, no. You practice every day. You hold their hands, you let you teach them how to cruise so that repetitive action or reflection helps us really build our skills and think differently. And yeah, it's it's been a great application, certainly for the leadership, and I'm very happy I graduated to new questions. Thank you so much. We're like, ah, but there's got to be, and you probably know this because of your background as a teacher, there's like, some brain chemistry that's happening because, because, because, when this is another thing you did, if I had a win, you gave me a heavy ass lift on the deconstructing everything that I thought, everything that I acted on, everything that I felt, and you base it, I mean, it was a heavy lift. But instead of just saying, great, but I don't do this yet, you're like, No, no. You don't get that free pass. 

You have to go back and kind of solidify what you did, how you did it, how you felt about it, and that sets you up to repeat, lather, rinse, repeat, which is really good, good stuff, well. And I think there is something about I would much rather dig into wins with people, because I think what happens is we can. We are really, we really welcome digging into our failures and picking them apart, and then what we learn from that is how to repeat failure, right? Yes, when we go into our wins and our successes and we pick them apart, what we learn is how to repeat success, and it feels less when we're picking apart failure. Success feels like magic. 

When we pick apart success, we're like, oh, this is just another recipe. Like, well shit. And that's so I like in a coaching as a human I am rather adamant about stuff like that, even with my kids, where I'm like, Okay, well, what went well? And they'll be like, Oh no, Mom, please no. Like, grumble for a while, but you're right, and it helps focus on what you did. And then the more you focus on that, the easier it becomes. Is not this mysterious hurdle that that was just a shot in the dark, or I got lucky. No, actually, you did things like you were saying a minute ago. You get to choose how you react when you're in traffic. You get to choose when you're trying to implement something in your business. It may not feel like choices, and you may feel a little bit like you're being dragged, but you are making your own choices. So when good comes up it it's really good to reinforce like, oh yeah, I did that. And that builds trust in yourself.

It does well. And I think we're so we as humans are so quick. We've talked about this in many of these conversations, to how quick we are to be like, Yep, I did that. It was great anyways. And then, but we are still replaying the guy you didn't tip in 1993 at the restaurant like you. It was so funny to me. I write three things that were great yesterday in my journal. Every morning I on Wednesday, went and looked at my list from Tuesday, and I was like, wow, how quickly we forget. Because what I didn't write down for Monday, I like, had a good kickoff call with somebody. I did something else. I like, did something with the kids. Those were the three things I wrote. I also gave a workshop for like, 15 people, and had a bunch of people follow up with me and ask me for things I didn't write anything about that. And I was like, Oh, how. Wow. That went fast.

Oh, my God. So it was ridiculous. But like, we we let those good things go as, like, check marks and the bad things, we take the check mark and we like, like, try to pierce our brain stem with it. We just, like, stab ourselves over and over again. Is so
rude with our tool pens, right with our fabulous pens, I've converted Kelly into my favorite kind of pen. If you want to learn more about my favorite kind of pen, feel free to email me.

I'm promoting them for you. I've got, you know, many followers from a red one right here on that note, though, you make a very good point about what we choose to reiterate, and this relates to trust you. You can't. It's not, not good to make negative assumptions. And how many times have you said to me, if I worry about a client, or the reaction to that client, like, don't jump to a conclusion unnecessarily. Don't assume negative. That's that's their job to tell you, if they've got a point of view that you need to change, or you know that you need to fix something with what you're doing. 

So I think that helps too to trust what I should be focused on or what I can control, not imagining. It's wasted energy to imagine and not have proof about things that I might worry about well. And I think the other thing that comes into that is, so what happens is we're going to do X thing, and then we imagine that that's going to cause A, B or C reaction from the client or the person buying from us. And A is kind of lukewarm. B is horrific, and C actually takes the sky from the the universe and pulls it down upon us like it is, like middle bad, horrific. And what happens when we imagine those things is it hurts our confidence, and then it sort of degrades our trust in ourselves, because we're like, imagining the terrible outcomes, and then it stops us from doing the job we were supposed to do. And then it's like, oh, gosh, but why didn't I do that? I know it's going to work. 

And you're like, do? I know it's going to work, and then the whole crazy loop starts, and oh my goodness, which is why, like, I constantly come back to, like, what's your actual job? What is the thing you're supposed to do here, right? What's not yours? That's exactly right? And, and the more you kind of keep that in check, the better, the better off you'll be. It's it's just, it's a it's a better way to ground yourself. It's way more fun, too. I mean, who wants to carry around like all of the doubt or the I don't know. Maybe I'm just tired of it, but it's much better to trust and to be ready and to trust that I'll be able to react to whatever comes my way, good, bad or otherwise.

And you do you can you see that all the time? I can remember times you're like, well, but what am I going to say if they say like, I have a feeling when they say whatever it is, they're going to say, you'll know what to say next, because you do it every day, just saying, right, like, I can't plan out those conversations as much as we can. You how many times you've done this? I've done this. There's one person I'm doing it with right now. I have the conversation I'd like to have with them in my head, but it starts with them saying something dumb, and then me having the things to say and having it all at the ready. And that person is never actually going to say that to me, it's true. So goofy, and it's like rat. I was like, how much mental energy do I spend on it? Too much, right, right. Okay, so I'm gonna ask you another question. Tell me what you're working on now in trust, like, what do you feel like the next the next frontier in trust for Kelly is
for me personally, okay, do what you want. Yeah, I think, I think it's getting comfortable with the idea of offering our magic to more people. So the idea of who do I want to share this with? How do I do it so that I feel comfortable? This gets back to the idea of selling is scary, and you know what, if they reject me, but so I am building my trust muscle on getting out there, more outreach to people and and honestly, I feel like the way to do that, other than the practical things that you are helping me with in our weekly calls, you try this step by, let's, let's agree that we can move to the next level if You do these five things, is kind of feeling a mission behind what I'm doing. And I didn't really go there, which is odd, because we talk with clients a lot about what their mission is and how they can, like, sort of inoculate their employees to feel the same way. 

So like, Physician, heal Thyself. Oh, we. You're the like, peddler with no shoes, or, like, what is that? The Yes, yeah, yeah. So I now I'm, I am very I will always come from a place of gratitude. I am so grateful for the clients that we've gotten to work with and to help truly. And now I feel like, okay, we need, we have a responsibility to go do this with more people. Really. I believe in what we do. I believe now more than ever, that employees deserve to be engaged. It's harder now the equation is way more complex, because remote versus in person and return to office and like the value proposition individuals have with how they spend their professional day has changed immensely. So we play a big part there helping you know two way communication and make people feel valued for what they do and connected to a bigger picture. I think we all need that. So suddenly I feel deputized like I gotta get out there. I gotta share this.

Well, in for context, Kelly's the stretch Kelly's making as a business right now is to diversify the client base she's in, because she has all these strong clients, but they're in a similar industry, and now it's diversifying outside of there is the sort of the next jump. And it really is this idea. But I love thinking about it as connecting to, like, the mission, to the like, oh my gosh, if I don't do this, no one is they're not going to get what they need without me. And that's not saying they can't get what they need, but like, I have a duty to offer this service because it is necessary. And that's an entirely different view than like people will say to me, Well, the thing I have is nice to have, versus necessary. And it's like, well, but that's what you're thinking for someone, it is absolutely necessary.

Yeah, right, and safe, yes, for, I'm sorry to interrupt, for any company, for any company now, they may have things in place that are headed that way, but I can tell you, for any industry at any stage of its life cycle, this is important stuff. You don't pay attention to culture, you're going to have turnover, you're going to have disgruntled employees. You're going to have challenges. Now you don't have to over swing and make it a pizza party every Friday. That's not culture anyway. But I think astute leaders and really savvy organizations have to pay attention to this and well, we talk, we talk about it all the time.

 I actually quote you regularly with clients that it's like, you can have intentional culture or unintentional culture, but you, you, you got, you get to pick one that's exactly it happens with or without you, right? Yes, by design or by default, right? Exactly. And like, I'm sorry, but, like, I'm not interested in by default. Like, even as, like, a household culture, right? Like, how many parents do you see that? Like, parent culture, family culture, is by default, rather than by design. And you're like, and then you see somebody that's doing it by design, and you're like, holy magicians Batman. Like, correct? It is a bit of a superpower right to to have that foresight. And I say that with the full humility of that. You know, we probably had parenting by default for many years
Bye, but we learn, but not in every way. T

here are parts that you're like and parts that you're like, Oh, I got this. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So yeah, and I don't, I don't know exactly when that realization came to me, sometime in the last several years, for sure, but that is a huge boost to trusting because then you are not distracted from challenges, things that you didn't anticipate. You're like, Okay, we have to move on. It's simplerness of purpose. Like, let's go. We've got to get there. So I'm not going to be like, oh, there's nads. I'm I'm not going to let that bother me. 

I have to keep going well, but that's, I mean, when the purpose is service, I think it's so much easier to and it doesn't matter what you sell, whether it's a service or a product. If the purpose of that thing is service, and you can find your way to it, it's it becomes a very different thing to sell, especially when you're behind it. Like, one of the things I talk with people about all the time is, like, if you're going to sell something, selling maybe is really difficult, like, right?

It's true. It's true. And when you're you're offering something in service, the rejection isn't as big. Blow because your your reaction is okay, they're just not ready for it yet. So we have to keep helping them. Or it's not even, even if it's not that, it's like, maybe they're just never going to be ready. But there are people who are, yes, waiting, waiting. There are people who need this right now, and there are people who will need this eventually, and there are people who will, I have a client who sent a proposal to someone, and she is like, what the heck? And I was like, the reason they need you is they're terrible decision makers.

 Oh, and I was like, so the process of making a decision to say yes to you is also going to be problematic, right? We knew that in advance. And she was like, Oh, right. But like, you gotta think about your people, right? Like, that's part of it. Okay, so tell me the thing that, if you were like, Okay, people, here's the thing you have to do and know and walk away with, about trust. Like, here is your key takeaway. Like, what is the thing you want people to walk away with much pressure, very looking for magic? Kelly, million dollar answer, I would say in a one pithy umbrella sound bite. Trust comes and deepens to those who practice it.

Oh, look, it's you hitting a home run, but it's you, and underneath that is you don't have to practice it alone. Find a Sherpa. There's there's daily or weekly things that you can do to minute by minute. Excuse me, I have to make a journal entry. I'll be right back. Um, but yeah, it trust will come if you practice it. And it's like, any skill, the more you do, the better you get.

Oh, girl, like, that's we're gonna, yeah, package that little bit and just be like number 12, right? Like, but it comes with practice, and it pays with practice, right? Just like everything else. And it's so funny to me that we don't think things like this are practices, right? And they just, you know, we everything is learnable, right? This is one of them. Yes, look at and I think about, I mean, I'm, I'm a weirdo, so I'm right there with you, because I've been in business for 18 years, but not really thinking of it that way, right? Like I just sort of did my own thing for several years. Then I started to bring in other people. But think about a baby learning to crawl or walk. We talked about that a minute ago. 

They don't like doubt themselves. They don't stop and say, That's it. I'm not walking. They kind of just throw themselves into it. And so I feel like, to anybody that's out there trying to start a business or get something going, it's scary, right? It's when as adults, we we carry all this like reasons to think it can't happen, but the more you trust, the easier that will become. And I do that still. There's, there's certain parts of my business, like trying to reach new clients and diversify my portfolio. Have I done that before? No, will I? Will I get it right? Well sure, because the way I do it's going to be right, even I don't have a textbook that says, here's how kth consulting should do this. So you just do it and you learn and you do it again. And that that helps with the trust too to try new things.

Well, because that you're going to keep at it like the thing I always think is, like, I'm going to keep at this until I figure it out Yes, and I trust that I am like, ridiculously persistent, and that I refuse to like, I just trust that I am stubborn and that that's gonna serve me and also not serve me all at the same time in lots of ways. But like, I trust that I'll get there. Wherever that may be, we may not know what it looks like, because that's not the job. The job is to keep walking forward. Or if you're you know, one of those big blow ups that has sand on the bottom, and you can punch it down, and what does it do? It pops right back up. 

But of course, that doesn't imply growth and forward. So maybe that's a bad analogy, but but sometimes it would feel really good to punch it exactly, exactly. No, I'm still here. Nope, I'm still here. Like, oh, God, um, that's we should write. We'll trust on one of them and just have it keep popping back up. Many clients. It would be like, Oh, the trust dummies back. Trust dummy, yeah, um. Hmm, tell people how to find you.

Okay, so we are in all the normal channels now coming to you from Walmart. No, just kidding. So we're on LinkedIn, we are on Facebook, we are on Instagram. Our website is KDH, hyphen consultant, consulting.com the hyphens and board, and otherwise you're going to land with some engineers in Illinois. So not the first time kth Consulting has been used. Or you could say kth dash consulting, a little dash of employee engagement, if that helps you remember. And then I am Kelly, dot Donlin dot toy at KTH consulting.com, am I forgetting any of the channels?
I'll put them all in the transcript notes too and in the but, like, here's the thing, friends. First, Kelly's lovely and tons fun to talk to you, which you have learned here. So like, you could just connect to her because she's a good person, and you'll enjoy her. 

The second, though, is like, if you're somebody who in the business world, you're out there and you're like, I can't this isn't the people aren't with me. Like, these are the communication things. This is the culture building. This is the kind of work on change. If you have a team and you're like, oh my gosh, I feel like I'm dragging them kicking and screaming behind me. This is kind of the stuff. 

So please talk to my friend Kelly. Kelly, I am delighted that we got to do this. Thankyou so much for  coming. Thank you and thank you for bringing these really important topics to your audience, because it helps so much to hear you and to have you guide people, it really makes a difference. So kudos to you. Thank you. This is my first podcast I've ever been a guest on, so I you know that flexibility. Yeah, it was so excited.

Okay, and I'm people out in the world, if you have a podcast, please now make Kelly come on yours, because she needs to do more of this. What a delight