Why Knowing How People Learn is a Business Advantage with Dr. Carrie Graham

Dr. Carrie Graham

Website = www.learningandsolutions.com 

LinkedIn = https://www.linkedin.com/in/carriegrahamphd/

Instagram = https://www.instagram.com/drcarriegraham/

Fix-to-Finish Tip Sheet = https://mailchi.mp/learningandsolutions/fix-to-finish

Welcome, welcome to another episode of the teachers in business Podcast. I am so super excited to introduce the wonderful and magical Dr. Carrie Graham, who is the founder of COGLAS, LLC, which is a consulting practice that helps business owners and directors really work on improving learning outcomes for adult learners and putting best learning best practices in place for adult learners. Think courses, think, published materials, think anything you're using to teach adults something. She is an author and researcher. She's been in this learning and curriculum and leadership development space for more than 25 years in the healthcare, higher education and management spaces. And she's been at all the conferences and done all the things and she's amazing. She is one of those amazing people, because she knows not only what you say, but here's what you don't say and has the ability to ask the questions that help you uncover exactly what's happening and come to solutions. She is very much like me, not a one size fits all kind of girl, and knows that she can meet people where they are in what they're doing in their businesses to help them really teach the thing they do best better. And that's an amazing thing. So welcome to my favorite person, Dr. Carrie Graham.

Thank you, Sara. Oh, my goodness, what, what a delight to hear all of that I have to say, oh, my goodness, thank you so much. I'm honored to be here with you, and your audience. And I, I just can't wait to have a conversation with you. Um, I saw one of your LinkedIn posts this morning. And I was like, Oh, goody. I'm talking to Sara today. She always asked great questions like, what a great day. Yay,

I love it, too. It's super, you and I get to talk periodically. We've done it on LinkedIn, we were gonna do it again. Here. We'll just keep doing it. Because we, I think we found that we just, we thoroughly enjoy this. So this is gonna be one of those podcasts. In theory, I try to keep them to 40 minutes, but it could be four days. It could be okay. Yeah, right.

Um, so let's start here. Talk to me about teacher and your definition of teacher? What does it really mean to you for someone to be a teacher? What, what is a teacher to you?

Yeah. So you know, as soon as you ask that question, Sarah, I thought about my first experience teaching. And it was as a college professor, so formal teaching, because I've always been teaching health in health care, but my patients, I should say, but when I think of a teacher, it's, you know, sort of what I was doing at the beginning, which was, I have knowledge, and i or i have information, and I'm going to share that information with, you know, my audience, whoever those learners are. And while that, that perception of a teacher has its place, what I have grown to know, and, and it has been more effective than just the position of presenting information to be consumed, however, but really, when you when you balance between teacher and facilitator, right, and so, as a facilitator, which I really believe that I am, it my focus really is on listening to what people like you are saying, listening to what people are saying what they're not saying, or even what they're struggling to say. And then either ask them a really strategic and critical question that helps them move the needle in their learning. And I have found that that taking that approach is far more meaningful for the learner than to simply take the position of I'm a teacher, I have information, and I'm going to give it to you.

Well, it's that difference between teaching and telling, right? Yeah, it's that and I think it's really important this idea of, there are things when someone is learning, whether they're acting as a learner taking a course or they're working with you, they're working with me. There are always going to be things that people struggle to articulate, that they can't quite figure out how to form into a whole idea and what you get to do and what I get to do, as, as a coach or consultant, a teacher as all those things, a facilitator is help them gather up those pieces into a coherent whole cuz sometimes when you say things back to people, they're like, all right, that is what I meant, like, how did you take my crazy, like, not puddle, as I think of it like this ice poured out all this stuff into a puddle and you went like, here's, here's the stream through it, hear through line. And that's, that's a really important skill, I think that that gets brought to the work you do the work I do that, that matters out here in the world.

It does. And you know, one of the so I am a like, my bachelor's is in health care. So I my foundation is in science medicine, as a health care provider, yours teaching, right, like education. And so I think when people are entering into the space of coach consultant, you, like you said any of those names, but they don't come from a teacher Ed background, oftentimes I find that they're, you know, what they're going back to is the model of a teacher, like the perception of what a teacher is, which is I have the information. And here I'm gonna serve it up on a platter for you, when you know, people who have been educated in teacher education really understand, you know, the, the way to help support and scaffold learning. And for people like myself, who have taught in higher education for so many for decades for to over two decades and have a PhD in adult learning, and have incorporated all of that in health care. Yes, we also understand the importance of being able to quickly but also clearly Connect, pull that puddle that you were mentioning together. But you know, my heart goes out to those individuals who are entrepreneurs, business owners, or directors and they're trying to create these learning experiences for their clients, their employees, and they don't have the same foundation that you and I have. And so as a result, I think what oftentimes they find is that their learning experience or the information that they're putting together, it's falling flat, right? So people are not engaged. They and I firmly believe when they're not engaged, they're not going to retain if you can't retain information, you can't apply it. Exactly right. And so that's really one of the drivers as to why I do this work is because on both sides, as a creator of a current of a learning experience, there are things that you need to know to do it well. And then as someone who's been the recipient of a poorly constructed learning experience is awful. I'd rather clean a public toilet like it is horrible. Well, it's one of those things where you think, I think all the time about how, like the perception of what people see in teaching, often goes to their worst experience. Yes, right to the version of it, we see in the movies were like, wow. And, and it's like, well, but that's how I learned and, and I'll say to people, and I have like did you actually learn? Like, what did you learn in that? And is that the way you wish for the people you're trying to communicate with to learn? Like, right, if you sat down and took this course, and it was totally new to you? Would you hear what why would you be engaged with it. And that's a whole different thing. I'm working with a friend now on something she's building in this space. And what she has is great. She has all these wonderful stories, but they're buried like two thirds of the way through. And I keep saying to her like stories to the front French just like stories to the front because you need to pull people in and the stories are great, but they are not going to make the first two thirds of the way through without the story. Right, you know, context, right? Like numbers and math and accounting and and, you know, seven minutes in people are like Who knew? Like I have to go and that's the thing. And it's like, no, no lead with the story. It's like, oh, but that's the good part. like yeah, that's the good part. Right? Stay for the rest. If you can bring them on board. It's really such an interesting way to sit in other people's lives, right is to be able to see those things and be like, yeah, this is great. The stories you have been great, the content is great. It's all in the wrong order, friends.

Right, right. And you know, I would I would liken that to a Sundae, right? Like, yes, you've got the toppings and, and the ice cream and such, but, and I've been seeing so much language around the use of stories, right on social media and the spaces that you are an AI are in, you've got to use a story, you've got to use a story. But I would take it a step further and to say, really to put that that beautiful cherry on top, is that the story really should not be about you, but rather about your adult learner. And that's what now Yes, I even use stories about my own my own experience, but matched with that is something that I know about my adult audience, and it's incorporated into that story. And so that the you know, again, that's the other part of it is yes, we do need to take the story from the end and bring it up to the front. And now that it's in the front, how how are we structuring that story so that it sets it engages but also sets up the entire learning experience?

Well, and I think you're now that's the idea of a Sunday is perfect, because I think in in so many cases, it's like you made this beautiful Sunday, and it looks beautiful, and you put the cup upside down on the table. And it was like, how, how does one get the spoon in here to get my Sundae, I can't even access it. Unless the cup is right side up, right? You're just like, it's like the most there's this place in Philly, that makes I have a problem with sundaes. I like them a lot. They make the most wonderful, like old school, butterscotch sundaes, which like I could, like, swim in, honestly, my body would hate me, but I would be so excited. And they bring out the butterscotch sauce and the whole thing, but it's like that guy made my Sunday and then flip the cup over. And it's those glass cups, you know? And it's like, well, crap, now.

Right, right, like, and then you think about it. And so that experience, after a while, it becomes frustrating. And after, you know, some more time of being frustrated, you just say you know what, screw it, I'll, I'll go have something else. And learning is the, in fact, the same. It really is the exact same if people cannot get in and get to the parts that they like, they're gonna get frustrated. And then the more creative they are. They're just gonna say, you know what, this isn't for me. Yeah, yeah, no. And that's, I mean, that's the interesting thing about something like that is, you know, that's so much of education. And I come from math, ed. And I was just had this little mini meltdown about the algebra about algebra and equity this morning on Facebook, because algebra is a gateway to so much.

But kids come into algebra. And people are like, well, but they could just work harder, like, well, but

underneath that frustration they have with algebra is they got lost in third grade. Yeah. And so there's four or 5678 years between them. And now they have to pass this to get to the next stage. This is the gatekeeper. But like, you've been telling them for eight years to work harder and figure it out. So right. And somehow now it's gonna be like, Oh, right. Like, that's not how any of this works. It's not how learning works out people work. It's not how anything works. Most of you might be like, screw this.

And they are. So talk to me. We've talked a little bit about it. But tell me what you started teaching people when you started teaching and what you're teaching now we know a little bit but tell us give us the bookends?

Yeah, yeah. So I, you know, on paper, it would suggest that I started formally teaching when I became a college professor, a university professor, right. And now, looking at my full career as a health care provider prior to entering healthcare, education, I realize that, you know, from the time I got my masters until like, the 10 years that I was in health care. In fact, I was teaching, I was educating. Now granted, they it was in very short snippets. Right, so I've got this injured athlete, I've got to one, understand what their needs are put together a training program to help them get better. Explain that information to them, get them to buy in, and basically buying in his engagement, right. So Amen. You know, getting them to buy in that this is the appropriate rehab for them, explaining things to their parents explaining things to the doctors and the coaches. And so now when I sit back, and I look at my career as a whole, I realized, like, I've actually kind of gotten back to that, right. So it's the consulting, and I'm doing this, that this teaching in smaller snippets that are really intense, which was similar to when I'm working in healthcare, when I was working in health care, which was teaching in small snippets. That's the bookend and what happened in between all of that was nine to five, actually, not even nine to five, really, most times it was seven days a week of creating a curriculum, teaching multiple courses, speaking at conferences, which is a different experience than being in a classroom, it's also a different experience to write a paper that's going to be published. Yeah, you're trying to impart information. And so, you know, in the book ends is it was in a very intensive strategic snippets of the learning experience. And in between, it was a lot of the foundational information like foundational knowledge and experience that I needed to really helped me be where I am today.

Well, and I think it's really interesting. This idea that you're this the scaling you're thinking about and learning and making in small snippets, because I think actually, sometimes we think that those tiny little bursts are just like all these tiny little random bursts. But I bet if we think back those small snippets are the ones that stick with us longest, obscene make, because they're meaningful to us in the moment, they are more likely to be like that thing we need right now. Like as someone who was a college athlete who was very injured at a certain point, like and in PT now for something and the physical therapist was like, Oh, yeah, when you were in college, they misdiagnosed all this, like they were 20 years ago, which is why you're having what you're having now, which was a great conversation to be having. I was like, Oh, geez, she was like, you're reading this book.

Right? And, yeah, that was great. But she, you know, it's a really interesting thing. When I learned things from them. In those situations, it's the same kind of things. It's like, Okay, I have this problem right now. You person have the solution. And the next five minutes, you can explain to me not only what's happening, but what I need to change. And let's we can build a plan to experiment with it. And that's coaching, that's teaching, that's consulting, that's all of those things, call it whatever the heck you want. But those are the things that when we reflect on them really make the biggest changes. It doesn't need to be 15 weeks, four hours a day in this course, like there are these structures built into education. That is a whole separate conversation that are not serving anyone.

Right, right. That's a whole other can of worms. Structural inadequacies in education period, Sara. But I think that it's so interesting to think about the impact of the smaller bites over time, and getting exactly what you need when you need it.

Right. Right. You know, Sarah, listening to you say that, it really reflects, you know, some of the theory around adult learning. And, and there's this book called when we decide or if we decide or how we decide, I think it is, but it talks a lot about how for adults in particular, our learning is all it's oftentimes attached to any strong emotion. Right? So So there's that. But then, you know, some of the assumptions about and these are validated assumptions about adult learners is that one we all are problem solvers, right? Like we seek out a learning experience because we have a problem we're trying to solve. And, you know, when we think about adults in their social roles, all of us right now are struggling. I don't want to say struggling but all of us are navigating time management in a different way that we have Before so you take all three of those together. In fact, yes, what we are seeking, it needs to be very focused to address whatever the problem is that we're having. It needs to help us get clarity and give us an answer in that moment. And then we're done. Right? And then we go off, we apply it, we, we massage it, right? So we flip it on its head, put it on its side, use it in different ways. And then when we're ready, we come back and say, Okay, I did all those things, I get it. But here's the deeper question that I have. And that's one of the things and and because I so strongly believe in that type of learning experience for adults, that's the approach that I take when I work with my, with my clients is, you know, they think, oh, we're just going to jump right in and start creating a course or revising my course. And I'm like, No, let's talk about who you're talking to. First off, I said, and let let's go beyond who your ideal client is. Because and I liken it to inviting people to a dinner party, right. So you invite your ideal clients to your dinner party, because they're the types of people that you want to talk to. But now that you all are sitting around the table, and you want to have a conversation about how to fold a napkin, one person may have never experienced a cloth napkin in their life. Another person might be five generations of napkin manufacturing, and another person might you know, the the descendants I don't know of, like renown napkin folders. So how do you have a conversation now that you've got these three people at your table, who are basically similar and who you want to talk to, you have to acknowledge the barriers that they may have to contribute to this conversation. And so that's, you know, again, going to those small snippets, that's the small snip snippet conversation that I encourage people to have first, because then it will inform how we build well, and it's that like, as a teacher, as somebody that's been in a classroom or worked with other humans, what you know, is two humans can come at you with the same demographics. Yeah. And entirely different experiences. Yeah. And you have to an entirely different learning styles. And I know learning styles. Is this whole over you like whatever? Yeah, yeah. But like, it's the person that's never seen the cloth napkin, the person that's manufactured them for generations, the person who the person I thought of at your table was someone who's an origami artist? Yes, that comes from an artistic origami family and is like, Oh, well, I can do the same thing with napkins, I have this other skill set that I can bring with me. Right? And you don't you just don't know, what they have brought. And so it's really interesting. I do similar work with clients, when we're talking about how to express your value to the people you're trying to bring in to the people you're trying to sell to how to share what you're doing, why? why it matters to them what problem you're solving all of that. But it's more about like, I don't care what color socks she wears, I just don't I don't care what color her hair is. I don't care what she like, there are all these exercises like what does she eat for breakfast? I don't give a crap. But really, like if you think of experiences characteristics, like, for me, so many of the people that come my way are inexperienced in the business world, but deeply experienced in teaching. Gotcha. And like, that's a useful demographic for me. I don't actually care what they taught. I don't care, right. I don't care. But if I was like, Oh, I only work with 11th grade English teachers. What doesn't make any sense you like green and drink tea on Tuesdays like, it makes me insane. You can tell. But, so, the totally makes sense. And I think that that's really Yes, agreed. I'm gonna change us directionally slightly. Yeah. Talk to me as someone who thinks in education and lives in business. Yep. Tell me what your favorite part of businesses and what's your biggest challenge has been?

Oh, my goodness. Like I just had a flood of thoughts. Just the flood of thoughts. Oh my god. I was one. Okay. Oh, I how do I To use it out, I would say, Okay, here, here's something that it's, I'm gonna, I'm actually gonna say it's personal. But it really is. It's pivotal. So for me, the best part of business is that I am the final voice. I'm the original voice. And I'm the final voice. And what I mean by that is because my entire career has been in athletics, where as a health care provider where it's about judgment, right, is that the right judgment call? Is that the right, you know, treatment, blah, blah, blah, to being in higher education, where it's around, did this, you know, really, the course assessments are about did the kids like you, as opposed to did they actually learn anything? Right? So there's that level of judgment. And then there's like the publishing and research level of judgment. And so there's, they're constantly these hoops that I've had to jump through that I didn't get to define what those groups were. But now as a business owner, I have the ability to define what the standard is, I have the ability to decide what direction I'm going to take and when. And so for me, that is, that has been one of the most liberating parts of being in business for myself. You know, it's, it's really given me a sense of confidence that I, you know, even getting my PhD walking across the stage getting my first published article and book chapters. It doesn't compare to the, to the feeling and the experience of being the original voice and the final voice. It's just amazing. It's interesting, so many people that I talked to you point to that as both the biggest joy and the scariest thing. There are so many ways in which people are sort of afraid of the power of that. Yeah, of being sort of the end all be all decider, like it's that it all rests in me kind of attitude, like, I have to do this, right. You know, with teachers, it's like, well, but I have to do it. Right. All right. But it is, but I think your approach to it is really lovely in that it's like, Look, if I'm gonna, if I want to jump through a hoop, I'll go decide what color hula hoop I want to buy. Yeah, I'm gonna jump through a hoop, I'll make the freakin hoop. But I do that to myself. I bought the Hulu, right? Like I get to decide how hard or easy I make this process is super empowering. It's a super powerful position to be out in the universe with. And it's also that like, it's the taking on of the responsibility, but not in a way that is like it's not a pressure cooker on it.

Right. It's not stifling in any capacity. And, you know, I have found I i've always as a kid, I was incredibly shy. But I had a sense of adventure, right? I always wanted to travel the world. And it was really around adventure. I wanted to learn about other lands, other cultures. And so even now, as a business owner, when things are challenging, yes, there are some days that I'm like, you know what I'm getting in the bed, like I'm pulling the covers back over my head. And I'll just start over tomorrow. I'm not saying that I have those days. But I look at it as this is interesting. What can I learn in this? What did you know, at the end of the day, I think Well, what's my you know, what did I learn? What, why did this happen? Right? So I'm always asking, I'm always being inquisitive. And that's the learner in me, and, and it has served me well. So thank you for that question. But I would say one of the things in business that have been, I'm gonna say challenging is the technology for what Okay, I'm just gonna get on a soapbox just for like 10 seconds. I can't stand the technology. I cannot stand it. I can't stand it. I can't stand it well, but I'm what way to define signal It's all of it. Right? So it's the, because where, you know, you have a greater reach was social media. And so, and I've learned to embrace that for what it is. But even with that, like, Well, why, why is one thing working and something else not working? And my IT person says will carry? It's because there's an algorithm. Well, I don't understand how do you know like, and so there's like that level of technology. There's the level of technology. I'm just gonna out us Sara, right, right. At the beginning when I login, right, like, I'm pushing the button, but she's not hearing me. I'm not hearing her. Right? So it's, it spans everything for me. It spans everything. And it's not a crippling, right, like, it doesn't ruin my every day, but I'm just like, a another annoying, you know, like, here's that like, death by 1000 cuts kind of Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, but anyway, that's, that's just sort of my soapbox that I'd gladly share with people. But other than that, I would say, um, another challenge for me has been really understanding the language, right? Like, the, the language of business, and not that it's a hard reach. But right when I think I got it is and I think what's happening is my business takes a step forward. And when it takes a step forward, the level of language deepens. And so it's like, okay, now I have to I know the basics, and now I have to learn this level of business language. And, and so that, again, it's like, oh, okay, well, I learned something new. You know, I did.

Yeah, I think the language thing actually intimidates a lot of people. Because it's like, okay, I open up this online business building book. And it's like, lead funnel, magnet, sales page, website, SEO letters in a row like, and you know, it like I can come back at you with like curriculum and assessment, and formative and summative and let me throw some terms at you. Right, it's a matter of like making the parallels between terms because you don't it doesn't come with like a handy Pocket Guide for what you spoke as a teacher that you now speak in business. I have a client who actually brings me words every week. She's like, what, what does this mean for me, and we talk about that all the time. But the other thing that I think is really interesting in there is I have this friend who is a coach who has this wonderful picture for what you just said, she said, You know, every time we encounter something in our business, we're like, on a spiral staircase. And what we do as our business grows, is we have like, take your terms like lead magnets, and lead generation and sales are all like standing on the outside of the staircase looking at you, but they go all the way up. So what happens as your business grows as you continue to re encounter them. Yeah, from a higher and higher point, every time you meet them again, they like poke you, and you have to read, you learn a new thing about them just from a different place. And our brains are always like, well, but I'm here again. Yeah, but we forget that we navigated like another layer of the staircase up.

I love that. I love that. It's so true. It is so so true. Because I you know, when I a year ago, I was like, Oh, I hate technology. I just don't even want to open a laptop. And now like later today, I have a very expansive, intensive, deep question to ask my IT person that there's no way in the world a year ago, I would have even had the words to be able to articulate what I need help with.

Yeah. And so you've like, are you still fighting technology? In some ways? Absolutely. But are you just doing it from a higher point in the staircase? Yes. And at a certain point in the staircase, like you meet some guy that's like your technology guy handle this part of the staircase. This is know for you. But like, there's somebody else that that's their joy. Yeah, joy of growing a business is like eventually being to the point where like, you can be like, hey, person who loves this more than me. Yeah, go, I will pay you for the service. Thank you for Yeah. And that's it. You know, it's it's binding. So I don't know what your experience has been. But in higher ed, a lot of the work is in isolation, right? It's a very independent experience that people have. And what I saw I entered being a business owner with that same mentality is that i i have to do Do this by myself. And the reality is, is it's really, you know, I want to use positive language, it's an invitation for you to invite others into your space, as opposed to say, Oh, I don't want to ask for help, or I should be, you know, I was so successful before I should be able to figure this out on my own, but rather use the language of, Hey, this is not my area, this is not my strength. And this is the language I use with my IT person is this was not my strength. Clearly, clearly, you back you, backstroke in it? Do you want it? You know, you want to join my journey? And and I've done the same for her, as you know, join your journey and helping people understand your language.

Well, and I think of it all the time. So you know, in the exercise world, they talk about, you know, what you get to do versus what you have to do. Yeah, you know, in a business context, what I get to do is ask for help. Yeah, I don't have to get what I get you in, like, there's a blessing in that because a I get to practice asking for help getting help is not it's not a deficit model. Like it's not I'm coming to you because I messed this up. It's, I get to ask for help. Because as you said, earlier, I am the decider, or I get to look around and go like, crap, you know what I'm really in my own way on this, or crap, I could do this, but it is going to take me the rest of my life and I know, lives up the street. Like my friend who is a graphic designer who will look at it, and 20 minutes later, it will be gorgeous. And I would have been here for three days. Right? She does stuff with it, that wouldn't even in 100 years occurred to me, honestly, man, so I get to ask her for help. Like I get to ask those things. I don't have to it's a gift that I get to bring myself on the regular internet. Lovely, right. And it also actually goes back to adults being self directed, right? So yes, we all get to ask for help. But we all get to decide who to ask. Yeah, we all get to decide when we're over it. And we're ready to ask. Right? So even in the getting to ask, there's still validation, and they're still honor and the ability to do it on your terms.

Well, and it's different than it would be in higher ed or in a school system in a college setting. Because so often, I think what we've found and what why we've learned to do this this way is we know the person that we got to ask in that situation is not someone who was going to give us what we needed to like you could ask, but you'll regret it. Like it's that now I not only get to ask, but I get to find the person that actually I want to ask. Yeah, that gets me and actually it's funny, my husband jokes that whenever I hire somebody, contractor, web developer, anything, I really, truly, more than anything I care that like we are human together that you get now I get you. And then I worry about if you can do your job. Because if I don't want to hang out with you and have a conversation, like I don't want to do this, and I don't hire people like that. I just I can't bring myself to do it anymore. Where if I have to like I have a neighbor who has a contractor in the house right now working on a bathroom, who keeps going like oh, does your husband have the checkbook? And she like is ready to punch him in the face. And I'm just we're not I'm not I can't I'm too I don't know if I'm old or cranky or what but I don't have the patience. And so for me like I get to hire people I enjoy. Yeah, that's the base of my business like it is I mean it you think about all the meetings you've ever had to sit in in your career and you're like this is I would rather watch paint dry. And but not what this is like you know, you you just get to decide you have so much ownership that it's freeing right now ownership is actually frees you, it frees your mind it frees your creativity. It frees your your your calendar, truly, truly well. And it's that like, do you want to do this today? No. Great. Don't like I had a client last week who was like, I really don't feel like this is working right now. And I was like, Okay, put it down. And she was like What, what what? Like she It was like I broke her brain for a minute. I was like cool. Let's not do that right now. Yeah, cuz it's not working for you and there's no point in spending On this right now, it's just not working for you. That's okay. You're mad at it. It's mad at you. Let's go do something else that is working. Absolutely.

She was like, hmm, a hot moment of a mini stroke? I think. So, tell me, there are plenty of people that listen to this that are sort of in the toe dipping phase of like, I am halfway out the door, my foot, one foot is in the water, and I'm deciding whether or not I should be in up to my waist in this whole business thing. What is the one thing you want them to hear? Because they're we're all always able to hear those things. But like, what, what what's something you would share with them that you have found that you think would be useful?

I would say that my experience has been, it's a journey. It's a journey. And I remember when I was thinking about getting my PhD, a colleague said, Oh, it's now he goes, Oh, it's like a marathon. He's a marathoner. I hate running. I mean, I just hardly like to walk fast, let alone running. And so I would, I would not say it's a marathon, because there is no end to it. It's a journey. And, you know, the journey is what you make of it, there will be some bumps in the road, there will be some detour signs, and you have to decide which way to go. There will be some pauses in the journey. And they'll look, there'll be some times when you get to put your foot on the gas and go as fast as you want. But when you look at it, as this is simply a journey, it is just a chapter in my life, as opposed to this is defining my life. This is who I am, there is a destination, I think when you start to think about us that ladder language, is really when it gets you become fearful you you start experiencing a lot of doubt you you're inclined to say, I'll just stay in this job because it's stable and secure. Or I'll find one similar to it, because it's what I know. But those times when things are challenging for me, when I just go back to carry business, just the journey. It's just a journey. It's just a chapter for right now, it might be a 10 chapter book, it might be a one chapter book, that doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. It's what is today gonna look like, well, and it is that like, Listen, it's going to end up where it ends up. Yeah, it's going to look how it looks. It's going to be what it is. And you know what, I'm going to make it as fun and ridiculous and me as humanly possible. And it's my freakin journey. And I'll take what I want. If I want to take my stupid hat with me, I will be I was going to go forwards. And sometimes you're going to look around and go like, oh, how did I get over here? And there are days where you're like, this journey is stupid. I don't know what I was thinking. Like, all of that. The thing that goes terribly wrong for people, I think, is that they get to they have those days, and they're like, Oh, crap, I messed it up. No, man. This is like on the journey, you're driving to vacation and something explodes like Yelp, and you're looking at work, and then go ahead and not being that's the thing, Sarah is, it's my journey. Your journey is your journey. And I honestly, I would say the one thing that has really gotten in my way, and I allowed it, right, so like, I'm gonna take ownership, I allowed it is all of the messaging on social media, right? It has to be like this, you have to do it this way it needs to be in and when you don't know anything, right, which I didn't. You are like, Oh, these people have been in business. They must know what they're talking about. And so you become a consumer of so much information that it is not helpful. And so what I would warn people, right, I want to warn your audience with love to really get a handle on the mess of the online messaging, right, take what you need, and then you have to recognize this is now become a distraction. Well, and it's that like, like, I clients make fun of me. They'll go like, oh, have you heard, you know, so and so that I follow and I just don't? Yeah, I am ruthless about the amount of noise I let him. Yeah. And that's something I teach people because I think what happens particularly teachers are like, researchers, yeah, like to find all the answers and read all the books and look at ratings and take all the courses and we're like, whoo, let's find the 16 ways you get done and you have 160 ways, and you're like, crap only needed one. Right? Gosh, now I'm gonna pick the wrong one. And we have made a way bigger problem. So we tune out.

Now 6% of that. Yeah. And just trust yourself. That's the other part of this. Like, I don't need all the noise. I know that I'm going to figure it out. You are going to figure it out? Yeah. And do maybe will I do it the hard way? pretty likely. But like, so freaking What? Yeah, it is. And there's a lesson in that, like, you'll be better for Yep, yes. Yes. We've all gone through the two day act flies when when it really should have only taken 20 minutes. But now we know. Yes. We know. That's a rabbit hole. Don't even look at?

Well, in the next time you're like, Oh, no, no, no, it's a trap. It's a trap. I see it. I saw you, Bernie, I see you coming to get me. Right. This is so much fun. We could talk all day. We cannot though, actually. Because you have things I have things. So tell me how to have people find you and tell me what you have coming up soon? Because I know there are things. Yes, thank you so much for the invitation people can find me on LinkedIn is mainly where I hang out. But my website is www dot learning and solutions.com. And I actually have a five day challenge coming up next week. And it's called fix to finish. And basically, it's let's add here to help people find that small fix to actually finish their curriculum. And it really is a small fix. And so it's one hour for five days, we'll meet at virtually 11am to noon, Eastern Time, Eastern time. And I'll go through some very strategic parts of efficiently and effectively revising and constructing a curriculum instead of working on it for the rest of your life. Even though it's a million degrees outside everywhere in the country, like we there are other things that we all be doing. And it just causes so much stress. And so I've I've figured it out, I figured it out for me. And my my goal is to share my insights with others, because I think that they will be helpful on this.

Yes. So I will link all of these things in the transcript. And the notes, we will have all that here for you. If you go click on the podcast information, you can grab it all. If you are really trying to teach people and you're thinking that you're looking at what you're building, and you're like, I don't know if anybody will get through this. Yeah, you know, if you're thinking that you do and we all thought it where you're like, Oh, yeah, it's so boring. I don't know what to do, though. I don't know how to do it different. Right? Listen, turn around, go to Kerry's website, please, please call her because she can help you fix this. It doesn't have to be painful for you or them. Holy moly.

It does get and my my focus is on calm. So we're going to get through it without the extra stress without aggravation. It'll be a peaceful experience. That's crazy.

Yeah, you peaceful because that's it. Like that's the whole thing, right? It doesn't all need to be this hard, any of it, none of it on anything. And from a business perspective, if you are a teacher in the business world, and you are halfway in and you're like, oh, in my own way don't know what all these words mean. Really trying to you know, trust yourself and own your spot. This is what I do with people in coaching like this is this is my world and I'm happy to help like worst case, we have a conversation and you feel better about it and you go on your merry way like all good.

I'll go with that. Thank you Carrie so much for this and for being here with me today and I will see you all on the next episode of the podcast.